February 25, 2004
The $249 iPod mini contains a $479.95 Hitachi MicroDrive. So the best deal on buying a MicroDrive for my D100 is to buy a iPod mini and take it apart. You get the MicroDrive for almost 50% off and you get a free pair of headphones. 02.26 Update: Try at your own risk. Of course you’re going to void your warrantee and you’ll most likely end up with an anodized aluminum paper weight.
02.27 Update: There seems to be some confusion here. My original post wasn’t clear. I’ve been looking to buy a 4GB MicroDrive and figured this was the cheapest route. I haven’t done this. I can’t vouch for the hack, but I ordered a mini to test with. If it works I’ve got a new MicroDrive, if not, it’s off to eBay. From the posts below I see there has been success removing MicroDrives from other MP3 players. Hopefully it’s going to be easier to open than my 1G iPod. Also… Jonathan is my name, not Joanne.
03.10 Update: Has this exposure caused the MicroDrive price to drop? Amazon is now showing the 4GB Drive priced at $299.99
03.22 Update: I’ve just done the Creative Muvo 2 removal. It works! It’s a piece of cake, and by far the cheapest way to get a MicroDrive.
it's needs to be formatted FAT by your computer first. it's the same microdrive in the nomad and that works fine in a camera:
http://yoursphotographer.com/microdrive/microdrive.html
Same goes for the Creative Muvo MP3: http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=18&threadid=265023&highlight_key=y &keyword1=4gb
Are the MP# player manufactures taking a loss on these drives?
"Are the MP# player manufactures taking a loss on these drives?"
No, the $480 figure is retail.
Even if the $480 is retail Apple can't be covering the cost of the rest of the hardware, packaging, fulfillment, etc. I think they're counting on you buying a boatload of songs - and what are they making on them? Something like 12 cents each? If this was any other industry it would be considered dumping and there'd be a trade agreement against it.
Can the drive be formated by your camera?
Dunc: Actually, in a recent article on Wired, it was stated that iTunes is a loss leader to sell more iPods...
How do you go about formatting it FAT? Will a computer's card reader recognize the card?
boingboing is wrong. this works fine. the camera can't format it right out of the mini- you need a compact flash reader. the drive mounts fine on a mac or PC. you need to format the drive to remove a special ipod partition that apple has made. after that it's will work fine in your camera... it's not a quick drive though... it's going to take a bit to transfer 4 gigs of photos over a usb card reader.
Sure they are. The bulk OEM price of the drive is below $100. Hitachi thinks they can rape the digital photography community with the $500 retail price because they have a monopoly right now.
even below $100 there's still $50 of more hardware and manufacturing cost there. add on a million dollar ad campaign and slick cube packaging and this thing barely makes money if it makes any at all.
folks, i talked with the hitachi senior apps engineer and it will NOT work and was expressly designed as such.
CF cards support 3 interface modes, Memory, I/O and IDE. the iPod drives are stuck in IDE mode and most cameras expect Memory or I/O mode. its part of the CF standard for the host to command the CF card what mode to go into at power on, but it appears that the iPod microdrive ignores this command, or at least my digital rebel does not issue the command.
i tried both putting the microdrive in my rebel and copying the partiton map, firmware and mountable partitions of the ipod onto my 1gb flash and putting that in the mini. neither worked.
it may still be possible to put a flash card in the mini though, apple may have not connected the pin that would command the flash card to go into IDE mode.
he claims that soon creative will be using these 'special' microdrives so the muvo2 hack will be disappearing as well.
did you format the card first with your PC?
yes i did format it with my PC, FAT32.
believe me this doesnt work. it will work if your camera happens to support IDE mode CF.
Try formatting it FAT16. Stick it in your favorite Linux box, run fdisk and change it's type to Type 0x06, write the partition map and quit. Then mkfs -t msdos .
Even if it doesn't work on your camera, it should still work on a PDA like a iPAQ, Zaurus, PocketPC, etc.
If you've got form-factor problems a $20 6-in-one media adapter or equally cheap PCMCIA sleeve should take care of this for you.
I don't have a mini-iPOD to experiment with, but I've been playing with embedded Linux stuff for a couple years now and have had no problem doing this with regular CF, or the Hitachi(nee' IBM) 1 GB Microdrives. No reason these should be any different.
There seems to be A LOT of debate if this will work or not. Since the mini-removed-MicroDrives have the same model numbers as the retail ones ( http://www.google.com/search?q=HMS360404D5CF00&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 ), I'd bet it's the same drive. I guess the only way to solve it is to buy a mini and take it apart! Who's game? should we pass the virtual hat?
'dillo -- they are different! the part number is different, and again i cant stress enough that i went right to the source and they told me that these iPod mini drives are IDE only.
if it truly is IDE only, then it probably won't work in a generic CF or PCMCIA slot, which apparently expects "i/o mode". it did happen to work in my sandisk USB CF reader.
the 300D hangs so hard i have to take the battery out of it, so i dont think its an issue of the wrong filesystem being on the card. for the heck of it i put the iPod filesystem on my 1gb flash card and the camera did not have any problem booting with that filesystem on the card. it managed to hammer the filesystem though :)
by the way someone else is posting with the name rob here. at least this rob (me) has already taken his iPod mini apart and tried every combination i could think of. i know of 2 other people around the web that have done the same thing and it did not work for them either.
whoops. yes I'm the other rob, and I have not taken anything apart.
^^^ and apparently I can't spell my own name. doh!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3800341674&category=50519
It has come to our attention that many others selling here on eBay are offering bare 4GB Hitachi Microdrives that were actually removed from OEM equipment such as the Creative 4GB Muvo2, Samsung's 4GB YEPP or pre-release versions of Apple's mini-ipod. The version of the Hitachi 4GB Microdrive found in these OEM devices is NOT generic and these modified drives will NOT reliably work in most other CF based equipment despite the claims of these sellers. The reason for this is that many OEMs using Hitachi 4GB drives in their products are doing so with proprietary firmware written to their specialized OEM hardware implementation . In the case of Creative's Muvo2 product it not only has proprietary firmware, but it also uses a different CF connector pin out and operating voltage than the CF industry standard supports. Any unknowing buyer who purchases and uses one of these hybrid Muvo2/Hitachi 4G microdrives in their CF equipment for prolonged periods of time will destroy both the Hitachi 4GB drive and their CF based equipment. For other OEMs using proprietary firmware in their Hitachi 4Gb Microdrives, you will experience intermittent read/write problems if you use their hybrid 4GB Microdrive in other CF devices. If buying elsewhere on eBay, please be sure to ask the seller the origin of their 4GB Hitachi Microdrive before buying or you may be making a costly mistake! In contrast, all our Hitachi Microdrives are guaranteed fresh OEM product direct from Hitachi and have not been modified in any way from the Hitachi supplied specifications stated below. If you have any doubts about our special OEM warning statement above feel fee to contact us and we will gladly provide legitimate buyers with our Hitachi OEM reseller ID so you can call Hitachi OEM and verify our statement as well as our reseller status or you can contact Hitachi Storage Technologies OEM directly @ 1-800-801-4618 to verify anything we have stated in our warning statement above. Buying a OEM drive removed from any of the OEM equipment stated with proprietary firmware will ruin your Hitachi Microdrive as well as CF based equipment.
Strange that noone has suggested that the "negative" info here and elsewhere is just Hitachi propaganda? I mean, they stand too loose a lot of money if everyone just starts buying iPods instead of microdrives... Just a thought, and not a bad one if I may say so myself :)
well i spoke directly with the senior apps engineer for hitachi microdrives and he told me the drives are IDE only. i am inclined to believe him, because, 1) i tried it myself and it did not work, and 2) the existing iPod has an IDE drive, so why would apple change the interface to CF/memory if they didnt have to?
the post above by fds is certainly FUD. the interface is definitely standard CF, pinwise and voltage-wise, but logically it is not the same as a standard CF card. nothing will be ruined by plugging the IDE-only drive into a device expecting memory or i/o mode.
i think that the firmware on the iPod mini drive is different and was made to disable the memory and i/o mode access to the device, rendering it useless for cameras that only support memory mode.
I took mine apart and put it in my d60, no luck. They dont recongnise fat32 drives, but my XP box formatted it with a usb adapter. I was able to put the drive back into the ipod and download the system restorer from apple and resetup my ipod to working condition! oh well.
OEM fat32, heehee
This reminds me of a company that sold the same contact lenses as disposable and as regular contacts. The only difference was the price. Ahh monopolies gotta love em.
not much interesting to say myself... tried everything you guys have tried and nothing... I have 2 iPods and destroyed one to try this out. Well it was my bro's ^_^ but it's cool cuz he just buys himself another hehe. anyway... nothing worked. I'm inclined to believe what rob posted about talking to the senior apps engineer. This was "expressly designed" to not work. I'm sure these guys are smart enough to know at least one of us would take this thing apart and find the hitachi microdrive hiding inside and try to use it for something else... that's why they work there
yep... i think at this point if 1) the drive's firmware is writable, and 2) we could get the firmware out of a muvo2 drive and 3) we could write that firmware to the iPod mini microdrive, we might be able to restore the "memory" mode that the cameras are expecting.
i think this is a pretty tall order. too many ifs.
by the way, there are 2 more tidbits i have to share:
1) the best way to open the mini was pioneered by Matt over at the dpreview forums: get some popsicle sticks and a hot glue gun. the method here can vary but basically you glue the popsicle stick to the white part, and then after it dries you just pull the white plastic insert off. i used a couple of clothespins perpendicular to the device, but you can probably use one parallel to the device. be sure to pull the plastic straight up when you pull it off, otherwise you could break the hold switch. be careful not to get the glue in the holes :) you can heat up the plastic pieces a bit with a hairdryer to remove the plastic from the popsicle sticks. i removed excess hot glue with a q-tip and rubbing alcohol. it looks good as new. avoid the printing on the top surface, the rubbing alcohol will rub it off a little bit.
once you have the top and bottom plastic off, you can follow the instructions at ipodlounge.com. you dont need the hemostats if you don't want to take the scroll wheel out. there's no reason to do this for the hard disk removal anyway.
2) since the working theory is that the iPod hardware expects the CF microdrive to be in IDE mode, it does not follow the hardware spec to put the microdrive into IDE mode. this is probably why CF flash cards do not work in the mini.
to do this, you need to ground pin 9 on the microdrive connector. i have not verified that pin 9 is not attached to ground in the iPod, nor have i tried doing this rework. its not for the faint of heart. i might try this next week. but there isnt much point in putting a CF flash in the iPod unless you want to make an absolutely jog-proof mini.
Wow! Hudson! Way to stir up a pot! I thought only Me, Murph, Dunc, and Neil read your blog. And me only because you set my homepage to it, and I'm too lazy to change it.
I think the reason they can get away with the price on the drives is possibly because they're buying them in bulk. Naturally if you buy hard disks by the hundreds or thousands, you're going to get a large markdown by the distributor of said product.
It may be possible to get the drives in the iPod Mini to work in CF mode. There are tools to flash new firmware upgrade onto IBM drives, and the MicroDrive probably has the same capability.
It may also be possible to enable CF mode by sending the right commands, or by physically messing with the jumper settiongs.
So, instead of wondering posting speculation, read the spec and find out.
http://www.hgst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/ A136D80F0D64067386256D8D005719B8/$file/3K4Micro_spec.pdf
Guys, just give it up. The iPod Mini's MD is stuck on IDE-Mode which so many have pointed out. There is LITERALLY no way of changing it to another setting b/c... there is no other setting! Take my advice and buy a MuVo^2. If you're going to buy the player just to take out the MD to use on your dSLR, I suggest you do it with the MuVo^2. Just remember: the MDs that work are the one's with a blank white face with only the words 'Hitachi 4GB'... if it has the barcode and serial number printed on as well, IT WILL NOT WORK IN YOUR dSLR.
russell - i have read the spec and the only thing it says about the firmware is that part of the buffer cache memory is used for firmware. no instructions on how to flash it, and the only command for buffer write doesnt even let you specify an address! it doesnt make sense that part of the buffer would be for the firmware because the buffer is most likely sram and the firmware would be flash or rom. i guess they just mean that the upper part of the address space is for the firmware.
muvo2 user - the hitachi apps engineer told me that soon creative will be switching to these IDE only drives, so this hack is not going to last very long.
Hey guys, I found this really interesting since I've got a 1gig Microdrive i was going to get rid of. All of the options for utilizing it in an mp3 player weren't very good. If someone who bought an ipod mini for the 4 gig is willing to sell the leftover ipod to me with all the included materials, I'd be very interested. I guess I'd need a copy of the partition and any software included on the microdrive before you formatted it. Thanks!
rob -
Well, that would seem to be the final word, then. I suppose that there may be a way to get new firmware onto the drive, but it would probably involve some serious reverse-engineering. Potentially a buffer overflow could do it, but that's even farther afield.
It's a shame that Hitachi would do this, but the economics that permit it won't last very long. Once there's some competition in the market (either from other drive manufacturers or from increasingly large flash memory stores), these kinds of practices will disappear. This is not the best news for Hitachi investors, but good news for the world in general.
Regarding the mystery of the pricing, it has nothing to do with volume discounts or subsidized accounting. Hitachi prices the "CF market" bound 4GB microdrives based on CF card prices, not based on what it costs to produce the drives. A 1 GB CF card costs $250 US. Hitachi doesn't need to price the 4 GB MD at anything less than $500 US to compete in that market, even if producing a 4 GB MD does only require $100 US.
This all true UNLESS hackers are persistant enough to break the boundary between CF and mp3 playing markets. Then microdrive prices will become roughly equivalent in the "two" market segments.
We just need to: 1) flash the firmware on the microdrives to i/o mode, or whatever. 2) not give up.
Hitachi will come around -- kicking and screaming perhaps. They'll still be able to make a profit, albeit at a lower margin/higher volume than they had hoped.
Greg
So, you're sayng that the MuVo's MD works in PDA's and shit?
so if anyone is still reading this...
i got a muvo2 the other day from compuplus.com. the drive works in the camera. so at least the muvo2 is still shipping with a camera-compatible hard disk.
by the way, those drives at amazon are all thru 3rd parties. from the item descriptions it sounds like those drives were removed from muvo2s :-)
Sweet. looks like ill be saving myself 200 quid :D
hopefully they don't sort this out anytime soon!
is it possible to stick an old CF card into the empty muvo and continue using it? would there be any formatting involved there?
Rob,
can you explain that last post a little, please, and maybe give some URLS (for "muvo firmware updater")?
I bought a Muvo in Hong Kong yesterday and plan to open it up & use the drive in my digital camera and put a 1gB CF into the Muvo, but I'd rather not be left with two expensive paperweights.
does this work with a 20 gb ipod?
does this work with a 20 gb ipod?
i understand that if you put a blank flash in the muvo2, it fails to read the firmware (what some people have described as a hidden file around the forums but obviously they are misinformed), and goes into a recovery menu which must be built into the ROM of the muvo2.
from that menu you can format the disk.
then you hook it to your computer and run the upgrader. i found this on the web:
http://uk.europe.creative.com/support/drivers/product.asp?bypass=1&category=10&os=10&driverlang=1&prod=586&drivertype=4
now, some CF cards work and some don't. i cant find any info on the web, but my friend at work seems to have found some resources on the web about this. i'll ask him later today.
david -- no. different kind of hd entirely.
here are some links for using a CF flash memory in a muvo2:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1023&message=7308713
http://www.photo.net/equipment/hitachi/mp3microdrive/
is the same CF memory muvo2 and mini Ipod, both work well?
Ok, I parted with the $450 AUD and got the MuVo. I have taken the microdrive out and put it in my C860. It didn't like it. Lock up. Had to pull the battery out to power off. Struggled to pull the microdrive out. Formatted it in card reader connected to a Win2K PC as FAT32. Took quite a while. Put it back in the Zaurus and turned it on. Card looked like it was mounted but probably not. Ran the normal terminal program and keyboard wouldn't work. Handwriting recognision worked though and a dmesg | more showed lots of error (forgot what now). Tried to select eject for the card, but my Zaurus seemed to freeze. Gave it a few minutes and decided that it had crashed hard. Had to pull the battery out again. After a few more crashes, I finallly got a working system. I copied a 10Meg MP3 from my SD card to the microdrive and it looked like it copied ok. I played the MP3 from the microdrive and it played ok. So it works. It doesn't like to be ejected though. A few crashes and battery in-outs. Also you need to put some sticky tape on the top and bottom so you have something to hold onto when you want to pull the drive out. Ok, a test. When my machine is stable with a 128M CF card, eject, pull out the card. Put in the microdrive and the icon appears. But it is not mounted. dmesg reports lots of read_intr errors (error=0x10 status=0x59). So I manually mount. mount -t vfat /dev/hda /mnt/cf And it mounts ok. The 10M MP3 is still there let it rest a few minutes. Manual umount /mnt/cf works. Earlier I tried the icon and crash,battery cycle again Now, pulling the microdrive out then causes the keyboard to stop working again. Handwriting works though. Won't suspend, hard crash again. BTW the MuVo didn't like my Amicroe 256M CF, but did like my 256M Lexar CF.
bought a Muvo2 shell off of ebay. bought a SanDisk 256MB CF off of newegg. everything went peachy...version 10 and 11 of the Muvo2 firmware accept the SanDisk as good stuff.
btw, why does a 256MB CF card only have 228MB of space? sigh...
G
I bought an Hitachi 4Gb microdrive from eBay and couldn't get it to work in my Minolta A1 camera although it does support the FAT32 filesystem. The card had been removed from a Creative Muvo 2 MP3 player. The microdrive worked perfectly in a USB 2.0 card reader. I found the microdrive had a small, hidden, partition put on it by Creative which was preventing the camera seeing the microdrive. I removed the hidden partition with 7Tools Partition Manager, re-formatted it, and the drive now works perfectly in my camera.
Q: 256mb why only 228mb?
A: hidden proprietary firmware or reserved space for future patches.
D
Has anyone recently tried to remove a Muvo Microdrive, one that could have come after any changes made? I just bought one and am considering raiding it for storage on my Toshiba e750 and am wondering if anyone can substantiate these rumors that the drive will not work, there seems to be a lot of "speculation", but no one saying balls-out that they know for a fact that the drive is different. There don't seem to be too many posts online in the last 2 months regarding this player, so Im not sure if I don't just want to pawn it off on ebay unopened and recover without the risk
Can anyone tell me how can I identify if a muvo is old or new just by looking at the retail box ?
read Peter Baxter's comment Tyman, and find out and then email me!!!!Cause i wanna use it in a Dell Axim x5!
I bought a Muvo2 second generation and removed the microdrive and after much reading realize that it is not going to work in my digital camera due to it being stuck in IDE mode.
My question now is what devices will these IDE drives work in? I'm ready to sell it on EBay but have no idea who my target buyers are going to be.
I do have Hitachi 4GB hard drive with disabled CF card support. I like to experiment with this drive to find out have to enable CF support. I expecting to permanently demage this drive to find answer. If anybody like to help I will appreciate. There must be solution : harware or software.
i think you should try using what Peter Baxter did as he posted above reformating with 7Tools Partition Manager, see if that clears the card
by the by, what would putting just a compact flash card in the mini entail i know it was mentioned above but it sorta dropped off
I have tried the 7Tools reformat as per Peter Baxter - the card still was not recognised in my camera.
Basically the Microdrive has a hidden partion on it to store the MUVO flash update program. Removing that partition DOES NOT change the Drive to CF mode (I wish).
I think we need to Flash the Microdrive itself (if possible) to change it's mode.
I live in hope, and certainly won't be buying a retail microdrive until prices are sensible, HItachi, if you're listening !!!
The only solution I have it this... a friend bought one of the second generation cards too late. I fortunately have one of the older 4gb cards. I am going to try to "ghost" the drive from one to the other, to see if that would make a difference and it would work for him. I too am determined to make this damn card work, one way or the other i am going to pull this off... Only issue is getting it recognized in ghost, haven't attempted this yet but there are readers designed for direct IDE connection for CF cards in DOS. Just have to connect them and see if this works...
If this is all true why will this thing work in EVERY usb/pcmcia cf reader I have just not my canon 10D? It just doesn't make sense
I just bought a muvo 4GB in Europe. I removed the MD and tried to use it in a HP2210 PDA / EOS300D - the card was not recognised, even after reformatting to one active, primary partition with FAT32. FAT format with 2 or 3 Partitions has also not worked. (The card was recognised by XP/W2K via a card-reader and can be used in every way - formatting-partitioning-reading-writing.) It really seems to be true that the drives have been set to IDE mode. After reading the white papers published by Hitachi on their website, I am of the opinion that the Microdrives used in the muvo are identical to the ones sold by Hitachi for usage in all CF devices. This MUST be possible to change! I cannot believe that Hitachi produce the devices and then cripple them! This is what the Hitachi white paper has to say: ". . .Note that the active state of the RESET line changes depending on Memory- I/O or IDE mode. In IDE mode, RESET is low active. To select Memory mode, the OE and Reset signals must be inactive (high,low respectively) at power on . To select IDE mode, OE must be active (low) and RESET should be high. IDE mode can be selected by holding OE low and by cycling power only. Only a POR can be used to select IDE Mode." So, by grounding certain lines and cycling the power, it must be possible to change the interface mode. I am not a technical expert, but would appreciate anyone who could give me further info. It also appears that the drive-diagnosis / maintainence software form Hitachi 'DDD' >might< be able to change this setting by using a microcode loader, but this would probably have to be supplied by Hitachi >haha<. The pin-out can be found under http://www.goblack.de/desy/digitalt/speicher/compact-flash/ I assume that it could be possible to change the drives, but it will be difficult. What is more interesting is that Hitachi seems to want to scare people off this theme by spreading technically wrong infomration (promising damage to hardware, data unrealibility). When we consider that Hitachi probably has a monopolistic share of the CF card market in storage devices over 2.5GB, this could be the starting point for a good class action. Anyone interested? P.S: I have written to one of the best technical German IT Magazines "c't" and described the Problem - let's see what they have to say - (I'll post the answer, if I get one)
it may be possible to switch modes, but i contacted the senior apps engineer for hitachi microdrives and he told me that the disks are "stuck" in IDE mode. its not as hard as you think to do something like this at the factory.
i dont think there's enough public information around to write software that could change the microcode. you would probably have to get this under NDA from hitachi. and since they are doing this to satisfy their customers (retailers/wholesalers) i'm sure they are not just going to roll over and provide this info to consumers.
David: did it ever occur to you that the camera expects the disk to be in memory mode or to respond to a command to go into memory mode (but it wont), and your reader puts the card/disk into IDE mode, which works?!
rob
1st Q: how do you see if the microdrives is running in "ide" and not "cf" mode?! are there some diag tools out there?
2nd Q (pocket pc related): wouldn't it be more easy to write an atadisk.dll f.e. windows mobile 2003 ti get "ide" support?
These drives contain a small flash memory referred to as "metadata" storage. See the spec sheet from Hitachi's website, page 82.
Since the drives are physically the same and have the same part number, it seems clear the only difference must be in the software configuration and therefore, reversible.
Could the information that makes the drive act differently be stored in the metadata area?
Does anyone have or know of software to read/write the metadata? This would be an easy possibility to rule out/in by comparing the metadata record of a working and non-working drive.
Better yet, does anyone have access to a copy of DDD-SI that can communicate with the drive? If so the earlier microcode could be reloaded into the drives.
Ben (pghben@yahoo.com)
i have a copy of the DDD-SI software. email me, lets get this thing figured out. in the whitepaper for the drive it says what bits control what capabilities... i think its very possible to edit the firmware to get this thing working.
Keith, I'm keen to get hold of the DDD-SI software.
I've emailed you some FTP details where you can deposit it! I'll post any advance I make, including possibel destruction of my 4GB :)
Thanks
heres a direct link to the ddd-si software http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/downloads/SISetup_v588.exe
i can't install the DDI software as I don't have a Hitachi/IBM drive to start with (FFS) - will keep my eye on ebay and get a cheapo one.
If anyone such a drive then use the link above to get the DDI software.
I'm sure we can crack this one...
You need an oem serial number to install ddd-si. This tool is well protected, normally. Go to the edonkey network and look for ddd-si. Get the serial number generator and you're able to install. I did the installation, ddd-si works fine. However, it does not recognize the 4GB MD. I've tried both via USB card reader and via PCMCIA interface. Maybe it needs a SCSI reader? Any suggestions? I am currently getting familiar with the idea of building an interface of my own (already bought a CF connector) and connecting it to some 16-bit micro-computer to send commands to the MD, but this will be a lot of work. I could probably by a couple of MDs for the effort it takes, but this is a kind of sports...need to get this d* thing working, no matter, how long it takes...
I heard that you can plug your 4gb MD into one of the new Rio Carbons and subsequently it will work as CF once the Rio firmware is installed. Can anyone substantiate this?
Didn't work for me. But the 5gb MD from the Rio Carbon works like a charm.
any news about a hack for the newer drives?
i tryed a lot to get this little drive to work in 300d cam. 45c is the device i have.
as harddrive tool i used the actual version of paragon "drive backup". its the same like the "drive imager" from 7tools.
as reading devices i used the imagemate usbreader from sandisk. today i bought an ide to cf adapter for direct connect to the ideport.
I tried differnet systems with the usbreader. one was win98 with athlon, win2k with athlon and p4, winxp with athlon and p3. i used the paragon software and windows drivemanager.
with the imagemate i was not able to get this hdd working in my 300d. here is what i did: with the hdd-tool i was able to see 2 hidden and one visible primary partitions with different sizes. my muvo now carrys a 256mb sandisk and works fine. on the muvo i see one hidden and one visible partition. i also had a 340MB MD and a 96mb CF to see the partions on it. there was only ONE primary partition on both. i think on one of the hidden partitons is the muvo firmware stored. with the windows hddmanager i was able to formate the drive in fat, fat32, ntfs without any function in my cam. so i used the paragon software and tried to delete all partitions and tried to reformate the drive. i was NOT able to repartition the drive as i want. the 4gb partition was always there. all the reformating didn't make the drive running in my cam.
today i got the ide adapter and now i try a lowlevel format. with this adapter i´m able to partition the drive as i want. i tryed 2 partitions with fat16; a primary and one extendet. nothing happend in the cam. i also set the drive to active one partition with fat32 and also with ntfs. i also deleted the partition but the 300d do not want this drive. the drive is cleaned up but not running. the last thing i will try is to formate in fat32 now. at home i again delete the partition and reformate with the usbreader. after this i have no idea what to do next to get it working
I did the same thing as you Sierra, However I am not able to get the drive to work in my muvo any longer.
I did a low level format and have had no luck getting it to work in my muvo, anybody have any suggestions? At this point I just want the drive to work in my mp3 player.
you tried the firmewareupdate with the hd? i can not believe that this does not work anymore. you have to make a firmwareupdate on the muvo with your hd in it. it must be the same as with a 256mb cf sandisk. i´d like to check this out, but i already opened the player that much, that i`m a bit afraid to destroy it.
@Cal is this "board" observed by Hitachi? i can't see your last post anymore!?!??? (where you wrote about dumping the memory and so on) may it be possible thst you are on the right way?
Kopf2k
okay, this board is censored by "whoeveryouwant" i posted 2 messages 4 hours ago... now it's only one ...
Kopf2k
Yes, I guess somebody is removing postings here...maybe we're getting too close.
Here is an excerpt of my "lost/censored" posting again: Why does the MD often refuse to work, when you re-insert it in your Muvo after some testing? In my case, the flex cable, that connects the MD to the Muvo PCB, was broken. Some 10 wires or so were defective. It's a very delicate flex cable, and I had replaced it with some 40 "Tefzel" wires. This operation took me 3-4 hours and requires excellent soldering skills as well as a good magnifying glass... For me, it worked. So I now have a "resyrected" Muvo, equipped with an old 256MB CF card, and a 4GB MD for testing...
Here is the next partial excerpt of my "lost/censored" posting again:
BTW: I am not an "insider", I did never get any confidential information neither by IBM nor by Hitachi. I am an electronics specialist, who can think in a logical way and who takes into account also the financial aspect of a mass production process. In an economic way of thinking, it makes no sense to produce different hardware or branch out series software just for "some OEM's".
If there is some censorship on this board, please, Admin, post a message about removed postings, so Ido not have to re-post any more...unless I don't know about technical problems, I will try to re-post.
Hi Sierra & Tim, i've had the same problem with my Muvo. After some experiments with the MD, I was not able to get the Muvo working any more. I discovered that the flex cable, that connects the MD to the Muvo's PCB, was broken. Some ten wires were defective. It is a very delicate flex cable thet seems to be extremely responsive to bending. The only way to fix it: Solder some 40 wires to the connector and PCB, fix them with special glue and hope for the best...for me it worked. However, ist was a 4-hour-operation and requires excellent soldering skills as well as a good magnifying glass... Back to the MD camera problem: I do believe, the so called OEM MD's are identical to the standard ones in hardware. The difference must lie in software configuration and/or firmware. I suspect the OEM drives even have a standard firmware, that can be switched to this "IDE only mode" by a configuration command. Once this mode is selected, it will be impossible to undo, because in IDE mode the necessary command will probably not be implemented. This is why Hitachi engineers call the MD "Stuck in IDE mode". To "reanimate" the drive as a standard drive again, it will be necessary to erase the configuration memory, which I consider to be part of the firmware flash memory. I think reloading the firmware will fix the problem. Where do we get the firmware from? Not from Hitachi, ok. I have two MD's now, one "43B" (works with digicam) and a "45C" (does not work). If I could figure out a way to read the firmware from the MD (and I am sure, there is a way), I could compare both drives and maybe find a way to reload. I'll keep you informed...!
Nothing has been censored. Sorry to bust your budding conspiracy theory . The site is to be upgraded to movable type 3.0 within the next few days. The database was backed up and replaced. In the process the * one * comment above slipped through the cracks and was posted after the database was backed up and before everything was replaced.
That's all folks. The missing comment is posted above. Return to your MicroDrive hacking.
@hudson: Okay, no conspiracy, great! ;-) Thanks for the information, I'll keep on posting my progress with the MD hack...
@hudson sorry
@cal if you can write an utility what can dump the firmware in ATA Mode, i can make a dump from one original Hitachi 4GB drive (btw a 47C) and two muvo drives (a 44C and a 45C)
Kopf2k
Is this something the most techno-elite of you microdrive hackers might use to get at the the microcode differences between the 43C and 45C drives?
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/B3532E521AB7FCE987256ABD00795DE3/$file/dmdm_spw.pdf
Between that document, this one: http://www.hitachigst.com/downloads/ddd588ext.pdf
... and this one: http://www.bellmicro.com/VendorShowcase/hitachi/downloads/HGSTFamilyofMicrodrives.pdf
... there MUST be a way to unlock the memory mode and get 44c/45c drives to work in cameras...
Thoughts?
Try this for some additional info as well:
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/184CEC3CD133A1C886256DCC0057244F/$file/embedamicrodrive2003WP.pdf
P.S. Google rocks...
I have a 46c. I tried writing zeros to it and still wouldnt work in cf devices. Then i plugged it in my rio carbon, loaded in the firmware, and tried it again... it worked as CF!
@ tim miller
so your rio unlocks the drive as it also does with ipod mini drives.
so the biiiiiiiig question is..... how does the rio firmware unlock the drives. i do not buy also a rio for 250,- at this time i also do NOT need 2 drives with that capacity.
Okay, I hear more and more people talk about this Rio player. I've just ordered a "Carbon", to find out: 1. If the 5Gig MD can be used in my camera 2. If it's true the player can be used to "heal" a 4Gig "Muvo type" MD I'm really excited about this. If the Rio player can "heal" a Muvo MD, then it should be even easier to write some small app issuing the appropriate commands. Maybe I'll hook up a logic analyzer to the CF port, to learn more...it it's gonna work.
I was wondering if someone has already managed to get the Hitachi 4GB Microdrive working in a iPaq (22xx) PDA. I removed the drive from the Muvo and can access it without problems in a usb cardreader. When I put the drive in my iPaq there's a message stating "Unrecognized Card". Typing ATADISK.DLL has no result. Any alternative advise for a device driver?
@Nico read the posts above you have a 44C or higher, these drive wont work in cameras, ipaq, whatever ... until someone founds a hack / crack / workaround
Kopf2k
Hello Kopf2k,
I indeed have a 44C. So waiting for a patch or hack. By the way, it is very easy to register as a partner on the Hitachi website and have access to the "famouse" DDD-I software. In the description of the software there is talking about "modify" the harddisk.
"This tool allows SIs to modify, optimise, initialise and test drives* (limited support for Hitachi legacy hard disk drives)."
I will have a look at this software to see if this can be of help.
Nico
i'm looking for a pcmcia (pccard) reader for the MD with the ability to read the MD in ATA mode. because with my USB Reader i can access the drive but the DDD-I software does not recognize it.
Kopf2k
I don't seem to have luck. The Compactflash to PCCard adaptor I've got only accepts CF I format not the microdrive CF II format. I've read several Hitachi tech documents and in assembler it looks easy to switch the mode. One paper even includes a complete listing for a menu operated utility program to change mode for a Single Board 8031 Computer. It first seems easier to switch to IDE mode but an Hitachi engineer suggested: Leave OE open and power cycle to switch to memory mode. To switch to IDE mode hold OE low and cycling power. Now find a way to control OE. I think we're coming closer and closer to an solution.
Wow, 5GB! So I finally got my Rio Carbon, and I've already dissected it. The 5GB MD (from Seagate) works in my Canon 10D!!! With my PC card reader, it seems to be 50% faster than the Hitachi MD. However, in the camera the Hitachi seems to be twice as fast. No idea, why. About the rumours, that a Rio player can "heal" a Hitachi MD: This is not true. I've reformatted the Hitachi "45C" MD in the Rio, it still does not wirk in my camera. I did not succeed in putting a 512MB CF card in the Rio, so I put my "45C" Hitachi MD. The Rio player really is a cute thing, that I really didn't want to destroy. Btw: If you intend to open a Carbon player, be aware that this thing is not build to be opened again, once it is assembled. I found some documentation from a guy "Greg Hughes" who was successful in removing the MD, but his player looks kind of messed up...the pictures he took were not very helpful, and he broke apart some things that were intended to stay together... If you really intend to rip apart a Rio player, you need to know, that the metal back is held in place by 10 (ten!) metal brackets, that have to be opened to remove. Two of the you can open after you removed the front panel, which is attached to the player with some adhesive. The other 8 brackets are hard to get hold of. However, I have managed both to disassemble it and to put things back together, and it still looks fine from the outside! I really like this player, it looks nice, and I'll keep it as an MP3 player, as it now holds my Hitach 4GB "45C" MD from the Muvo.
Some ideas about "fixing" a Hitachi 44C or higher model. According to Hitachi the drive can be placed in memory mode by leaving OE (pin 9) open and power up. I can try that with an inexpensive cardreader this weekend. Simply disconnect pin 9 in the reader and see what happens.
I !!! THINK !!! that Hitachi hardwired the signals to high / low / open so that the drive is really forever in ATA Mode, except you have a cleanrom and can desolder microSMD 0 Ohm resistors from the PCB and solder them to an other place....
When i am on the way to throw the drive out of the windows against the next wall ... i will keep it in my hands and open it to look on the PCB
Kopf2k
I still have a little bit of hope that the lock is only a software "thing".
@Kopf2k: Don't throw the MD against the wall! If you want to destroy it anyway, open it carefully and make some photos of the pcb...I wonder, if there is still a discrete flash memory ic, or if there is a pcb-mounted "die+glue" thing only. But serious now: I am convinced, there is no difference in hardware. No manufacturer would do such things. It must be a software thing only!
First of all I need a very, very, very small screwdriver to try and open the microdrive. Furthermore I received an answer from Hitachi stating that the specific OEM drives are ALWAYS in IDE mode. Question is if this is arranged by firmware or by grounding pin 9 (OE) internally. I'm now at the point of buying an IDE to CF converter. As the microdrive at this point is only working as an IDE drive that should work. From the old DOS days I remember the debugging commands like g:c800 to access low-level formatting routines. Perhaps that might be an option to have a look at the firmware. As I want to use the microdrive in my iPaq 2210 I'm also playing with alternate atadisk and atapi drivers on my PDA but until now without succes. If anybody knows a solution to get the microdrive working as an ordinary IDE drive on the PocketPC operating system please let me know. I'll keep on digging.
i found some intresting pictures:
http://www.griffwason.com/gwimages/hitachimicrodrive/GLWason_microdrive1.jpg
http://www.griffwason.com/gwimages/hitachimicrodrive/GLWason_microdrive2.jpg
http://www.griffwason.com/gwimages/hitachimicrodrive/GLWason_microdrive3.jpg
http://www.griffwason.com/gwimages/hitachimicrodrive/GLWason_microdrive4.jpg
http://www.griffwason.com/gwimages/hitachimicrodrive/GLWason_microdrive5.jpg
http://www.griffwason.com/gwimages/hitachimicrodrive/GLWason_microdrive6.jpg
http://www.griffwason.com/gwimages/hitachimicrodrive/GLWason_microdrive7.jpg
just to see the inner things, whithout throwing it against the next wall ;)
Kopf2k
i want to open the MD ... but i can't do it ... my fingers wants to open the drive ... but my brains says "NO, don't do it".
and my girlfriend wants to have the muvo ... but shit happens :D
in that case that my fingers wins against my brain, i will open it. (send me beer to kill my brain! ;) )
Kopf2k
@Kopf2k: Thanks for the image links...maybe the knowledge of the MD's interior keeps me from dissecting...I feel the same as you do about opening the drive. And I'm afraid I'm gonna buy some beer for the week-end... But the images show me, there is no flash memory that could be removed and read in a programmer. We need to find a fix, that works directly from the connector, just by software.
may it be possible to measure the pins if they are open / high / low? pin? against pin?
or does anyone work in a hospital and can make a high resolution x-ray (for free) to see if there are some on the pins?
Kopf2k
While playing with my CF cardreader and dismanteling it I saw that the pins used for the CompactFlash connection don't have the same length. Some pins are about 2-3 mm longer and I have identified 2 pins being 2-3 mm shorter. Might that be any clue?
in many devices the VCC pins are shorter and the GND pins are longer, to be sure that GND is at first on the device
Kopf2k
just to think about it:
if Pin9 (OE) is connectet to Pin1 and / or Pin50 (GND) then the possibility that the drive is hardwired to IDE is high.
is that right?
Kopf2k
Guys,
About the Rio can fix the Hitachi drive here is what people posted. You need to put the 4 Gig Hitachi in the Rio Carbon then RELOAD THE FIRMWARE FROM RIO website.. that would unlock the IDE mode so you could be able to use it on your Digital camera. I done the same thing that you guys do bought the Movu and spent huge amount of time to make it to work but after bought the Rio Carbon the problem fixed.
Good Luck Folks,
Okay, maybe I am not that lucky than Speedo is... I also put the "Muvo 4Gig MD" in the RIO Carbon player, reloaded FW 1.16, and the MD still does not work in my Canon 10D camera. However, it works fine in the RIO player, as well as in my PC (USB-card-reader). I wonder what camera Speedo has? I heard that the Nikon D70 seems to be "more tolerant" regarding the MD? Any experiances?
i tried with the rio carbon and my D70 and it worked. So i guess it MUST be a software problem.
I bought a Rio Carbon, disassembled it (don't follow the instructions on the web unless you want to break things*), and put the Microdrive in. I tried both the 1.02 and 1.16 firmware upgrades and neither brought back CF mode. At this point, I am just going to leave the Microdrive in the Rio and reassemble it since I can use the Seagate drive from the Rio in my camera (Canon S1 IS).
*Here how to do it with little or no damage: Pry the back loose at the bottom (don't go in deep, keep it less than 1/8" in since the battery is there and you can cut its wrapper and short it out with metal tools) by prying the metal back down relative to the plastic sides (i.e. the top is where the headphone jack is). This will release the bottom two metal clips inside. Now, while keeping it apart, stick something 1/8" thick and non-conductive in at the bottom to keep it apart. Now, there are two more metal clips on each side. You will need to a good light (magnifying glasses help) top see inside where the clips are (approx. 1.5 and 2.5" from the bottom). You will need to make a tool that has a slight hook at the end (mini screwdriver with last 1/32" of the flat blade bent or equivalent) to pull the metal clip outward to release it. Do the ones closest to the bottom first. Once the side clips have been released, you can slide the metal cover up relative to the plastic sides a little while wiggling it back and forth and lifting up. Keep it as parallel to the sides as possible (don't pry it away from them while lifting up). This will release the top clips near the headphone jack. With the back cover removed, lift the unconnected end of the drive just far enough that it is free of the plastic. Then use a non-conductive mini-screwdriver (or carefully with a metal one, being sure to only touch one pin) to pry the connector out of the drive. Pry it just a little each time at various places across the width of the connector so it comes out straight without any stresses on it. There you go!
Still no luck in getting my Hitachi 4 GB to work in my iPaq pda. I found a little free utility programm that is able to show the version of the HD firmware. This program is called HD Tune 2.0 (search on Google). It shows that my Hitachi has firmware version 0113. I would be interested which version the 44B and lower versions have. This might be a clue about the actual protection, firmware of hardware.
Hi folks: I tested firmware versions for two different drives, using HD Tune. Seagate 5GB MD shows 009D Hitachi 4GB MD "43B" shows 009D, too (???) No clue so far.
Hi Cal,
Stupid question but are you able to check if the 43B version is working in a PDA?
@Nico: Sorry I'm not able to check the MD in a PDA, cuz I ain't got none...!